Su-35BM Vs F-22 Raptor

[sicsok]

Right on bro! It seems that they turned on a lots of Chinese males too. That is precisely the point. Your answer is correct, you won the TV-set...
A puzzle though: Anyone would recognise what this picture shows?

[ramjet]

Originally Posted by sicsok

Right on bro! It seems that they turned on a lots of Chinese males too. That is precisely the point. Your answer is correct, you won the TV-set...
A puzzle though: Anyone would recognise what this picture shows?

Could it be a Taikonaut perhaps?

[sicsok]

Pe3rsonal space rescue (deorbit) unit. The sausage-circle is not filled with gas, but quick-setting solid foam that ablates during reentry. Spacewalkers can return to Earth with it.

[greenlee]

Originally Posted by zb10948

Well...i see that our dearest F-22 camp has already voted for F-22, without even seeing Su-35BM's public performance. And they have the nerve to make personal assaults on me, how biased i am and such...

Typical of American double standards.

However, i personaly believe that Su-35BM would have quite a number of possibilities against F-22, but i won't vote. Yet. I'll vote when the thing goes up in the air, first time for public. Then, we'll see if rumours are confirmed, and if stuff that KNAAPO marketed is real.

1. Confirmed Saturn 117S engines. Saturn confirmed, 117S have supercruise. We'll have to witness it supercruising.

2. The public show will reveal details on RCS supression, and structural details concerning weight reduction.

3. The "new ultra long range missile for A2A" will be displayed too. We'll see what's the missile in question (R-37M / R-72), and we'll probably see brochures of it's performance.

Those three above are going to be essential if forming a debate. I'm not going into anything, till i get those confirmed.

Well said... please keep me posted.

[obrescia]

Originally Posted by Carlo

I agree in both points. It is true that the F-22 is superior to the new Su-35: it has a much smaller RCS, it can supercruise faster, and its radar is more advanced (though less powerful). Su-35BM is not a truly 5th generation fighter, but it is an amazing 4th generation one, and it is incredible all that Sukhoi engineers could take out of that old (30 years old) airframe: its RCS is probably quite small considering its size, it is extremely maneuverable, it can supercruise (though not as fast as the Raptor), and it has a very powerful radar with sophisticated missiles. It is surely the best fighter after the F-22, and will be a very good way to keep Russian and other air forces effective until PAK FA is introduced, around 2015.

The F-22 Raptor tactical use issues (never mind F-35?) may be:

1) Primary main weapon range / Newton’s second law of motion.
2) ECM detection of mid-course update transmission(s) for main weapon.
3) Thermal signature(s) of platform & main weapon.
4) Daylight/Moonlight contrail(s) of platform & main weapon.
5) Super-cruise only at high altitude / ‘turbo-jet’ like engines.
6) Kinematics
7) Detect Radar Resolution Filtration

Item (1): requires (6) which effects (3), (4) and (5).

Primary weapon is a medium-range-class (motor burn time) missile. F-22 proponents recognize this but say Raptor fly’s so fast/high it (see item 6) it effectively extends range of the AIM-120, Issues are: combined closure rate (frontal aspect attacker and defender), pilot maneuverability limits because of speed/G-loads (if Raptor still moving +500 knots after “push”), thermal airframe heating due to air friction and hot exhaust exposure (during merge). Effectively F-22 presents itself as a target (also extending Flanker weapons envelop) by hurtling towards an opponent?

This whole this boils down to; if F-22 press their attack, closure rates are so high and weapons malfunctions such a regular occurrence (on both sides) that F-22 aircrews will be in a dogfight (merge) within moments after calling "fox-3". Against advanced Sukhoi Su-30, 33, 35 Flanker series fighter, this may be truly a nightmare scenario for F-22? Can Raptor turn faster than Flanker can nose point? Raptor will need open bay doors for future helmet sighting as well.

Item (2):
Flanker will most certainly be equipped with a Threat Warning System that listens for Raptors AIM-120 mid-course update (data burst/handshake transmission) after F-22 weapon release.
(AIM-120D is said to have 50% better range than AIM-120A, not AIM-120C)
From here two (2) things could happen:
First; Threat Warning System triggers automatic release of expendables (chaff/flares); see reference, pg 41 (a). Second, Flanker pilot initiates a defensive 'beaming' / 'beam-turn' / ‘Doppler turn’ maneuver to defeat AIM-120 shot; see reference, pg 36-37 (a) & pg 97 (b).

Item (3):
Development/advancement cycles for IRST/OLS systems could be orders of magnitude more frequent than possible F-22 airframe changes. Combined w/ IR R-77 missile and if Flanker radar (slaved to IRST), could IRST see something then point radar straight at F-22? Stealth doesn’t like track radars, only scan radar.

Item (4):
Plane/pilot/weapon telegraphs not only their presents, number and tactic(s), but behavior(s)?

Item (5):
Raptor proponents say it has the best thrust-weight ratio of any current/future fighter. Engine performance seems more akin to say a Mig-25 (afterburner behavior)? This seems plainly evident on internet video.

Item (6):
Kinematics is the study space-time relationship of a given motion without the action of forces; no friction (drag), no gravity. F-22 unusual 'speed-brake' scheme (taxing existing control surfaces with no additional aerodynamic ‘pop-out’ device) may reveal true nature as more akin (again) to Lockheed YF-12?

Item (7):
Cannot radar resolution be adjusted so every object from a raindrop/hailstone/dragonfly can be seen? Compute power may be available (now/soon) to filter any objects with non-organic-like-motion, like an aircraft?

Closing Thoughts:

F-22 is the first supersonic highly maneuverable (pinch axis) stealth airplane. Is it really such a surprise it mimics most all the traditional characteristics, strengths, weaknesses and behavior(s) of a typical fighter jet?

Weapon ‘range’ figures are somewhat ambiguous. This is understandable due to sensitive nature of subject. (AIM-120D is to have 50% better range than AIM-120A, not AIM-120C). They include: the actual altitude, speed and aspect/direction(s) of both launch aircraft and target, to one another. AIM-54 Phoenix launch weight is nearly 3 times that of AIM-120. Raptor proponents almost certainly are referring to the F-22 itself supplying the height/speed ‘energy’ to take advantage of kinetics?


An investigation of the following aircraft including: requirement assessments(s) , development, testing, derivatives, and/or ultimate cancellation(s); particularly in the presence of Mig-25 first flight on 6 March 1964, could prove invaluable in understanding the entire array of assessments/opinions (today) and the low production volumes for Lockheed F-22 Raptor?
• Lockheed YF-12.
• North American XF-108 Rapier.
• XB-70 Valkyrie: (supersonic cruising / supecruise).

If Raptor is to be flown at high altitudes and high speed vs Advanced Flanker could a situation similar to what occurred in the early stages of the Falkland conflict emerge? Argentine Mirages stayed at high altitudes while Royal Navy Harriers remained at low/medium altitudes (neither content to give away his advantage) in what is best described as a series of 'non-engagements.’

Is all Flanker (and Mig-31) really need to do is scare off AWACS and tanker aircraft? Could the next war end during the flight time of say Ks-172 and/or Kh-31 class weapon(s)?


- Olaf Brescia / Sacramento, CA


Reference(s):

a) Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units In Combat- Cooper, Tom; Bishop, Farzad; Osprey Publishing, 2004.

b) ...And Kill MiGs, Air to Air Combat From Vietnam to the Gulf War (3rd), Squadron/Signal Publications, Lou Drendel.

c) Air War South Atlantic - Ethell, Jeffrey L.; Price, Alfred - New York, NY, USA: MacMillan, 1983.

d) Iranian F-4 Fhantom II Units In Combat- Cooper, Tom; Bishop, Farzad; Osprey Publishing, 2003.

e) Arab Mig-19 and Mig-21 Units In Combat- Cooper, Tom; Nicolle, David; Osprey Publishing, 2004.

f) Wings of the Red Star; Box set, NTSC; Rating: Discovery Channel; VHS Release Date: March 17, 1998. Narration by Sir Peter Ustinov.

g) Fighter Wing: A Guided Tour of an Air Force Combat Wing - Clancy, Tom; Penguin Group, 1995.

[sicsok]

The AAM and maneuvering dogfight just lost so much significance and no one noticed anything here?
Look:
The F-35 standard weaponry includes a scaled-down version of the airborne attack laser. I do not exaggerate when I mention that it's precision is such that incoming missiles, even bullets can be melted with it. So-while I love and even idolise the maneuvers of fighters, in an engagement the F-35 does not have to do much more than extend the laser-dome and leave it to hunt while flying along...
Yes, this does not eliminate other device-usage but I think it will change a few things up there...

[Sukio]

Mr. Sicsok,
Direct energy weapons are far off, the technology may be there, but the buck stops a Congress. Before you say anything about the possibility of U.S. lasers dominating dog fighting, think of this after the election, with a new Presidential cabinet, and an new Congress (well, theoretically new), comes a new ratio of neo Conservatives, and liberals who will do anything to get more industry, which equals more jobs, which equals more votes for their district.

Bascilly, the fiscal budget for military spending , for anything of that matter, including Fancy F 35 lasers, all depends on how much outcry the liberal vote wanter's or the Conservative money savers make. That's the balance, and that's how you get, a F 22A, or a F 18 upgrade program, or, the well hushed unmanned F 35 program that Lockheed had a research contract on, whether that's still running or not, is all a matter of imagination.