US long-range VS Russian close combat

[osuorsa]

Originally Posted by HanibalBG

On another ocasion two F-14Ds fired two AIM-54 Phoenix's at two mig-25p's but they bout mised.

Yes, but you can't say that it was because of the greatness of the MiG-25 or the poor performance of the AIM-54 Phoenix...Those missiles were shot from the very Max. range and the MiGs got radar warning and turned away with full after burner and thus got out of range. So, those missiles didn't even have a change to case the MiGs....

[zb10948]

Well, during the Desert Storm and local Israeli conflicts, Foxbats did evade AIM-120 rather often. And osuorsa, the only thing you would do if you were Foxbat/Foxhound pilot and you have an AAM chasing you, is to gradually turn your three OC or nine OC at it, and burst up full burners. Those aircraft aren't agile, and you cant just start manuevering around missile's trajectory like you could do in Flanker.

HanibalBG, Croatia

BTW, there was one story from the Desert Storm, when two F-15's chased a Foxbat, and fired a total of six AMRAAMs. MiG-25 evaded them all. I'll try to dig up a link for that, i think it was on acig.org.

[zb10948]

We should put down "table characteristics" for both aircraft, F-22 Raptor, and MiG-31M Foxhound.

Speed :
F-22 : Mach 2.0, with supercruise ability of Mach 1.7, G-limit of 9.5
MiG-31M : Mach 2.83, G-limit of 5.

Sensor suite :
F-22 : Raytheon AN/APG-77 AESA radar, range/number of targets unknown, aircraft RCS of 0.025m2 front-rear, 0.3m2 side.
MiG-31M : Zaslon-M SBI-16M AESA radar, 24 targets scan, range of 300 km, RCS unknown, but probably excessive.

Weapons, AA role :
F-22 : 6xAIM-120C5 AMRAAM, 2xAIM-9X Sidewinder
MiG-31M : 6xR-37 Arrow with 4xR-77/RVV-AE Adder, or 2xR-40RD1/R-40TD1 Acrid, or 4xR-60 Aphid, or 4xR-73 Archer.

What i see in these specs is :

1. Original Foxhound's radar can detect an RCS of 0.3 from 85 kilometers. Improved radar for "M" version, don't know really, but we can add 15 more km easily. That's 100 km, and it would seem that Foxhound can lock up and fire on Raptor from that hundred kilometers, only if he sensed his side RCS. On the other hand, Raptor also posesses a powerfull radar, add an enormeous RCS signature of Foxhound, and the Foxhound is easily detected. However, if someone can build an AESA, someone knows how to counter AESA . So, im pretty much sure that Foxhound's RWR will beep. So, the MiG-31M will know how to set up BVR geometry for Raptor's side-RCS "problem".

2. Now, at the moment when Raptor saw the hound, he can track, he can lock, but he cannot fire. The Foxhound has an enormeous advantage here...when he sees Raptor, he can press the trigger immediately. Take a look at those weapons payload. Six AMRAAMs versus six Arrows and four Adders. Adder is somewhat better than AIM-120B, but not AIM-120C. On the other hand, Arrow has helluva more range than AIM-120C, but it hasn't got it's accuracy and P/K. On the third hand, combination of Arrows and Adders vs AIM-120C5 is significally better. I strongly believe, by looking at radar/RCS/weapons data, that Raptor could get a first lock if he set up his BVR right (revealing his front RCS), but before he gets into AMRAAM firing envelope, MiG-31 will lock him up and fire. Note here that MiG-31M hasn't got a cannon, but if MiG-31 is forced to dogfight, something went wrong. If MiG-31 is forced to dogfight with a cannon, something went very, very wrong So it's quite natural that cannon was removed.

I'm not saying that MiG will shoot down F-22 always. I'm just saying that it has a very good chance to do so, and that specifications and differences between those aircrafts will leave everything to - pilot expirience. Eg, how good can F-22 pilot hide his side RCS, and how good the Foxhound pilot prepares his long-range missile attack.

Those two aircrafts are very different - one is an cutting-edge air superiority fighter with precise A/G strike possibility, assault aircraft, the other is an "flying ship" designed to destroy threats from great range, with SEAD supported in "M" version, defensive aircraft. But - i also think that MiG-31 is about the only piece of flying techology that has a decent chance to either kill or either make Raptor go back home. Newer Flankers - well, Su-35 has a very good chance in dogfighting, but in BVR that chance is significally lowered.

[osuorsa]

So, Raptor sees the MiG first but cannot launch it weapons yet. That's right. Now the Raptor knows were the MiG is and shut its radar down to not betray its own place. Now the Raptor pilot can move to tactically more clever place and while doing it, the Raptor can update the MiG's location by small bursts of radar energy and again shut its radar...This way, he knows all the time were the MiG is and could maneuvre to best place to get first shot.

If the MiG-31 sees Raptor in some place (what it most propably do) , the Raptor is close enough to start firing and then there's a big ball game in the sky. I don't like the Raptor but I admit that it has many advantages over many existing planes. Both planes have without a doubt very capable EWSs but in this area I'll bet that the Raptor has more state of the art systems.

I think it's no matter do you have 4 or 10 missiles for BWR becouse you propably don't get a chance to use them all...If you are on head on situation with both planes coming supersonic you are able to shoot about 2 to 3 missiles max. and then you may have a last chance to fleed or to engage dogfight...When going close range the MiG has its fellow Raptor all over it and propably have no chance to do anything...

Please, zb10948, try to find that F-15 vs MiG-25 incident.

[zb10948]

Hmm...i cant manage to find it. I'm pretty much positive i saw that info somewhere. You could look under the acig.org journal, middle-east database. Beware, it's huge.

Meanwhile, here is something from one very nice book :

MiG-25 Foxbat, MiG-31 Foxhound - Russia's defensive front line, by Jefim Gordon

Israel had apparently sworn vengeance on the
elusive MiG-25 and actually succeeded in destroying
one. On 13th February 1981, two Israeli
Defence Force/Air Force (IDF/AF) McDonnell
RF-4E Phantoms acted as bait, intruding into
Syrian airspace and luring a Syrian Air Force
MiG-25P into pursuit. The MiG-25 was then
ambushed by two F-15A Eagles hiding from
Syrian radar behind a mountain range. Popping
up from behind a cloud of chaff one F-15
approached the MiG from below so its pilot
could not see the Israeli jet and fired an AIM-7
Sparrow which hit the MiG's port wing. Syrian
controllers were unable to warn the pilot
because the Israelis were heavily using ECM.
Shortly afterwards the roles in the cat-andmouse
game were reversed. Two Syrian Air
Force MiG-21s provoked a couple of Israeli
AF/DF F-15s which gave chase. Two MiG-25Ps
took off to intercept the Eagles; one attacked
the F-15 head on, the other tried for a flank
attack. The first MiG-25 failed to fire its missiles
after losing the target lock-on and was shot
down by the F-15 flight leader. The other MiG
got a good lock-on and destroyed the wingman
with two R-40 missiles at about 40km (25 miles)
range. That was the last time Syrian MiG-25Ps
engaged in combat.
The Iraqi Air Force used its eight MiG-25RBs
with some success for bombing raids on Iranian
oil rigs and Tehran during the Iran-Iraq war.
One aircraft was shot down by a Hawk missile,
another was lost when an engine tossed a turbine
blade, forcing the pilot to eject. A newly
refurbished aircraft crashed on landing after a
check flight in December 1987. No Iraqi MiG-
25Ps were lost in the Iran-Iraq war. Soviet military
experts visiting Iraq noted that Iraqi pilots
were well pleased with the aircraft.
Operation 'Desert Storm' began on 19th January
1991. On the following day, an Iraqi Air
Force MiG-25P destroyed a US Navy McDonnell
Douglas F/A-18 Hornet. That was all the
good luck the Iraqi pilots had. On the 19th two
USAF F-15Cs destroyed two MiG-25Ps with
AIM-7M Sparrow missiles. On 25th December
1992, two USAF F-16 Fighting Falcons used
AIM-120 AMRAAMs for the first time ever,
shooting down an Iraqi MiG-25. Two hours later
an F-15E had a brush with a MiG-25, neither
side scoring a kill. A MiG-25 trying to intercept a
Lockheed U-2R high altitude reconnaissance
aircraft on 2nd January 1993, was attacked by
an F-150, again with no losses on either side.
Several MiG-25sfell into Azeri hands after the
collapse of the Soviet Union, since the type was
overhauled in Baku. Some reports state that
Azeri MiG-25s destroyed a number of Armenian
tanks with highly manoeuvrable R-60M missiles.
The Azeris also used MiG-25RBs, but
largely without success as the bombing computers
were out of order on most aircraft.

[bf-fly]

That's an interesting account, I'm curious if you can support that since the F-15 has by all accounts has a 108 to 0 record.

[zb10948]

bf-fly, i don't have anything to support That whole quote is copy-paste from an commecial book, the title and author is listed in top of quote.

I don't have any opinion about that, F-15, according to American sources, has a perfect record in air-to-air combat, but they have been hit from ground. Needless to say, maybe air-downed F-15 could be classified as an ground hit, so to retain absolute air combat record. I've seen other Internet sources claiming that "unofficial" combat hit, but maybe they're lying, and that MiG-25 hit something else. Could be anything, so i don't have any opinion. I don't trust U.S. propaganda, but i don't also trust something "unofficial, unrecorded".

[osuorsa]

I found it! The story about the first air combat of the Su-27s. So, it happened on 25. February 1999 in the bitter war between Eritrea and its former ruler Ethiopia.

In the skies on that day, the Sukhoi Su-27s of Etiopia closed in with MiG-29s of Eritrea and after some dogfighting one of the MiGs came down on fire over Badmen. The same incident occured again next day when Su-27s blazed a single MiG-29. In March Eritrean MiGs tried to change the situation for the last time and the results were again the same. Two MiG-29s downed by Su-27s.

It's said that Eritrean pilots were not as well teached as Etiopian pilots and it's also said that Eritrea had some mercenaries flying their MiGs.

I found out that the first engagement was started with the radar-homing R-27s but none hit their targets so the fighters closed in where the Su-27 downed the MiG with the R-73.

[exiled knight]

i know that russian and american must fight to show the result...

[exiled knight]

i need true resourse