Aviapedia

Indian Flankers beat RAF Tornados

By osuorsa | December 11, 2006 on 2:57 pm | In # Avia news |

Indian Air Force pilots with their Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters continues to grow their reputation on international exercises. They have beaten the US F-15 and F-16 pilots many times in recent years Cope India exercises. Now Indian pilots beat RAF Tornado pilots.

Royal Air Force and Indian Air Force had their first air combat exercise since 1959 after 47 years. One main goal on the exercise was the preparing to get three E-3D AWACS planes into service with the Indian Air Force during the next year.

The exercise Indra-Dhanush held by Britons and Indians included BVR and WVR engagements. The RAF brought Tornado F.3s and India Su-30MKI, MiG-21, MiG-27 and Mirage 2000 aircraft into the exercise. Indian Air force officials said that the Tornado F.3 was no match for the Su-30MKI. The Sukhoi was unbeatable even in the BVR tests. In the close-in fights and dogfights the Tornado had no change to do anything.

After the Indra-Dhanush Indian pilots felt a great confidence for their Su-30MKI and for their own skills. They even announced that they even didn’t need to use all the Air-to-Air modes available for the radar. RAF Air Marshall Cristopher N. Harper commented that the Eurofighter Typhoon at the time entering service is trhoughoutly a different case. He said that the Su-30MKI has little change to survive in the hands of the Typhoon. Mr. Harper still had to admit that the RAF needs to enhance its cooperation with AWACS systems used in the exercise.

The benefits enjoyed by the Indians was the ability to use their Ground Controlled Interception radars or GCIs to lead the Indian fighters well and correctly. The best aircraft India has is the Sukhoi Su-30MKI. India also flew onto exercise the venerable MiG-21, MiG-27 and newer and more potent Mirage 2000 fighters. The well handled joint operation between the radars and the older jets made it possible for the oldies to find their targets in almost realtime accuracy.

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I’m a Brit and I know the Tornados are old and crap. The Sukoi aircraft are insanely powerful and beautiful aircraft. They have every right to say the F.3 is no match!!

Comment by Planehazza — December 12, 2006 #
yeah yeah, Mr. Harper is running away with his tail between his legs and screaming that WHEN(in ten years with a pricetag equal to 1billion per typhoon ;)) mr.typhoon comes it will whoop su’s ass. haha, those crazy brits. As far as i can remember amos told the same thing about f-16/15/14 and they still lost

Comment by antoker — December 13, 2006 #
Good news for the IAF?maybe and maybe not.
The flankers have only fought aircrafts being phased out from the RAF,and same goes for Cope India exercises with their f-16s.
Their performance ought to be measured against more modern fighters……

Comment by Sujay — December 13, 2006 #
Hardly surprising, the Tornado F.3 was designed in the 70s to intercept Soviet bombers over the North Sea and the Su-30MKI is much more recent machine designed for the air superiority role.

Comment by Chip — December 15, 2006 #
HAha Nice propaganda Tornados where clearly simulating Indias potential enemies so F3’s had some systems shutoff, dogfighting- Su is far superior but BVR the GCI made it easy for the SU’s just like if they got attacked by an inferior neighbour.

Comment by grazhoppar — December 16, 2006 #
So the advanced Sukoi’s were using Ground Control Radars… This is good in training but it is questionable in a real situation.

I cannot see how the Eurofighter would win against the newest of Sukoi’s. In terms of agility (or should i say hyper-agility), range, speed the Su is much better. Even if Eurofigter has an advantage in BVR engagements, this type of engagement should be considered as a special case (when the target plane is 110% recognized as real enemy - if it is not you have to get closer!)

Comment by Sergios — December 18, 2006 #
These exercises are designed to (cleverly) assess specific abilities and often give a wrong impression. No medals need be claimed here.

Comment by Hamid Khawaja — December 20, 2006 #
The Eurofighter is designed specifically to combat any threats posed by current or future Russian aircraft, including the Su-27 and its derivatives. The Eurofighter is a more modern and sophisticated aircraft than any of the Sukhoi’s. With agility and avionics far superior to the Su-27 family, Britain has no reason to fear any aerial threat for many years.

Comment by Braxton — January 8, 2007 #
i think typhoon is equal or better as the su, in all terms

Comment by Rocko Granata — January 11, 2007 #
Personally, I have much confidence in French aircraft, missiles and other defence products including electronics (although British by nationality). For instance, I refuse to believe MICA (both radar & IR) are not a match for the latest AMRAAM AIM-120C5 the RAF are about to incorporate (F3 + Typhoon) whether fired by the Mirage 2000C-5 or by Rafale ot for any Russian made missiles. Consecuently, when we talk about fighter engagements we are essentially referring to a combination of missile performance and defensive aids. Here again, in my opinion, France is difficult to beat. For instance, SPECTRA fitted on the Rafale and perhaps other (secret)suprises such as an effective virtual stealth capability (Active Signal Cancellation) which, only they themselves know about and could already have operational. It is difficult to see that Russian made avionics or products can compete with all this. CAPTOR with its third channel, as used on Typhoon, sounds interesting and indeed may enhace its countermeasures immunity but rest assured that ‘THALES’ will not be trailing far behind. Last but not least, also let us not forget this company’s OSF (front-sector optronics) again, as used on Rafale, which enables the aircraft to fly and attack without it ever having to use its radar (F22 beware!).

m

Comment by Michael — January 11, 2007 #
“F22 beware”

What are you talking about? Really, you can’t match any so-called 5th gen fighter to the F-22. It is a much more capable aircraft. Just wait and see…

Comment by Braxton — January 16, 2007 #
I think Braxton works for BAE Systems. Nice piece of propaganda his first post.

Comment by Acky — January 22, 2007 #
lol, I just know the facts.

Comment by Braxton — January 23, 2007 #
Returning to the subject in question and to be more specific, in my opinion the comments by ‘Grazhopper’ & Hamid Khawaja (above) are very relevant and exact. Both insist that it was a well thought-out, prepared environment similar to what was set-up during the Flanker-Eagle encounter. I.E. armament restrictions and out-dated analogue radar etc. in the case of the US planes. Undoubtedly, the F15 as for instance, those supplied to S.Korea, would provide a very different story (Digital phased-array radar + AIM 120C5’s). Similarly, rest assured that the RAF F3 crews with thier unbeatable training doctrine & experience, would sureky be a fairly equal match for the more modern Flankers on more familiar terrain (Leuchars-Fife), especially, if additionally vectored by thier own GC assets.
So, how can we get closer to the truth regarding fast-jet performance comparisons which are of such interest? Well, through deductions some things can come to light:
F3’s have been pitted against Armée de l’Air Mica-armed 2000C5’s in the past, the outcome of which could be very revealing but as yet nothing has been published or discussed other than informal impresions in favour of the latter by French air crews. In turn, Mica-armed Dassault Rafale has also, in principle, been matched against Amraam-armed F18 Super-Hornets and aparently prevailed. F15’s on their part, have apparently tried to bounce the Eurofighter Typhoon without sucess. Lastly, F22 Raptors have reportedly beaten the Eagle hands-down (zero losses), 8 aircraft against 30 of the latter of unknown spec.
When both Typhoon & Rafale recieve METEOR + their proposed up-rated radar, few aircraft will be able to surpass these be they from the East or from the West,in my humble opinion. Thrust vectoring + more powerful engines aside. Let us wait and see!?

Comment by Michael — January 26, 2007 #
Personally, the above comments both by Grazhoppar & H.Khawaja are by far the most relevant with regards the subject in question. Briefly, I believe in a different environment, for instance around Leuchars / Fife, the outcome could be quite different. The point is, that indeed familiar terrain + familiar groung control assets, can obviously make the difference and even compensate the very differnt technology levels of opposing aircraft.
Armée de l’Aire 2000C5’s (MICA armed), have in the past been pitted against RAF Tornado F3’s. The precise outcome, in unknown, but, French pilots did give to understand that they prevailed but, could never follow the Tornado when it went into a dive or at low level.
The comment by Chip (above)is in my opinion, not correct, as the capacity to intercept long-range bombers depends far more on ground &/or airborne EW assets, than on the fighter itself, obviuosly. Nevertheless, on that level the F3, especially todays version, remains a very capable aicraft because of it’s loitering (swingwing)capacity (ability to remain on station far out to sea)and sturdiness of the platform for very low-level flying at high sustained speeds.
The F3, has often been matched against such aircraft as the digital array radar USAF F15’s based in Alaska with’good results’which is saying something! These are not quite up to the S.Korean F15 standard planes but are potent aircraft in the SU30 class and Tornados have certainly often managed to take the advantage of F16 & F18’s.
Going back to MICA armed French aircraft such as the Rafale N, these have, following the Afganistan campain, managed to prevail over USN
Super-Hornets and, played an important interdiction role patrolling offshore during the last India / Pakistan crisis to thwart the possibilty of a coastal pre-emptive nuclear strike by any one of the two sides.
The new F3 standard or the export Rafale armed with the long range ramjet powered METEOR would be even more capable. Curiously, France does not see the need for IRIS T or ASRAAM type weapons because of MICA’s versatility, the close-in weapon being the canon amazingly, not operational on RAF Typhoons, although, they now seem to have retracted and are begining training in its use, once again, following experience in Afganistan.
Michael

Comment by Michael — January 27, 2007 #
anyhow a simple question is that,name which hi-tect&modern aircraft fighter from western that a capable to fly a very basic&classic ‘tail slide’?…NONE!
Can outdated russian aircraft fighter be upgraded to MRCA and modernized?…YES they did!
This is a fact that an old MiG-29 can be fitted with hi-tech equip. same level as F-16, but none of the F-16 can match like those MiG’s fly&menuever ability-simple tail slide?…until now…mmm..mmm…

Comment by adeenas — February 10, 2007 #
I’m not surprised. The aircraft the RAF currently use is a national ‘joke’, most of their current aircraft are very old and crappy. (The only ones worth keeping for now are the Harriers II)

They should scrap all those antique Jaguars, Tornados, Nimrods and buy F-18 Super Hornets off the Americans until the F-35 is ready, scrap those unsafe Nimrodes for E-3 Sentry. The RAF don’t even have anything which can match the MIG 29 Fulcrum. The Eurofighter Typhoon is no match for the SU-30 or F-18 Super Hornet

Comment by Andy W — March 26, 2007 #
the raf tornado maybe phased and old but it still is a brillaint aircraft, ad are the flankers but if they ran into the path of the typhoon they would be blown into oblivion. the indian airforce may have beaten the f15 and f16 in training excercises but the typhoon took part in an american excercise and took care of the f16, f15, f14 and nearly the raptor!!!

Comment by joe — October 1, 2007 #
Sukhoi was introduced in 1996. Tornado in 1979. I am glad that indians finally won something. Next time guys try with Me-109.

Comment by Dariusz — May 5, 2008 #
indian airforce can own raf.

RAF Air Marshall Cristopher N. Harper commented that the Eurofighter Typhoon at the time entering service is trhoughoutly a different case. He said that the Su-30MKI has little change to survive in the hands of the Typhoon. Mr. Harper still had to admit that the RAF needs to enhance its cooperation with AWACS systems used in the exercise.

harper thinks it is 18th century.

Comment by rajat — June 14, 2008 #
ALL OF YOU, THE RAF IS OK. IT HAS’NT GOT ENOUGH MONEY TO BUY Su-30s OR F-18 SUPER HORNETS. IT WIL HAVE TO MAKE DO WITH “OLD AND CRAP” TORNADOS. ALL OF YOU, THE RAF IS NOT A JOKE. AND IF YOU HAVE ANY SENSE AND STOP RABBITING ON ABOUT OUR ROYAL AIR FORCE HEROES (THAT SAVED YOUR BUTTS IN WW2, IT WAS NOT THE AMERICANS, THEY WERE LATE AND LAME), THEN YOU WOUD’NT BE EITHER.

Comment by the only decent guy here — July 9, 2008 #
In all these kind of exercises, the idea is not to check a machine vs machine fight, but to conduct a mutually beneficial exercise that provides learning opportunity for all sides. And each exercise is conducted with a predetermined scenario. So the outcome of an exercise should not always match to an outcome of a real fight in war. Also in a war many more factors comes into play.

Please note that both sides has not come up with there total available capability. Google it and find out, that is a minimum work expected to be done.

Comment by Jimmy — July 15, 2008 #